Welcome to WikiProject Paranormal, a WikiProject that aims to provide a framework for the improvement and organization of articles related to the paranormal, anomalous phenomena and other similar areas. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask us on our discussion page.
To provide a concise and accurate record of notable beliefs, organizations, experiments, individuals and events which are associated with the paranormal, including their history, background and their current status.
To provide a framework (including infoboxes, categories, and examples of Best Practice) from within which scholarly entries about the paranormal, and related topics, may be produced.
To provide a scholarly set of terminology to describe the paranormal which is technically, culturally, and contextually accurate.
To seek out and apply verifiable mainstream sources to pages within the projects scope with the aim of A) addressing any issues of verifiability and reliability that have been highlighted in existing entries, and B) ensuring that new entries are of sufficient quality that their verifiability and reliability do not become an issue.
To ensure that each entry approaches its topic from a balanced and neutral perspective.
To ensure that the notability of each topic can be gleaned from its entry, without the need for additional explanation.
To ensure that a clear dividing line is established between reporting the belief in/background of the topic in a scholarly manner, and advocating/denouncing the topic itself.
To expand project stubs to full entries and to progress full entries to the next level.
Patrol frequently vandalized pages within the project's scope.
The following articles fall within the scope of the project and have been noted for their outstanding quality. Project members are encouraged use them as examples of good practice and to note their different writing and organizational styles.
This is a list of recognized content, updated weekly by JL-Bot (talk·contribs) (typically on Saturdays). There is no need to edit the list yourself. If an article is missing from the list, make sure it is tagged (e.g. {{WikiProject Paranormal}}) or categorized correctly and wait for the next update. See WP:RECOG for configuration options.
You didn't acknowledge that the conspiracy-themed materials as you referred to before have been removed. Clearly your arguments are mostly targeting pre-2000s content. They have been "sanitized" to some extent and more non-primary references are added. VaudevillianScientist (talk) 19:54, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, there is still plenty of conspiracy-themed stuff in the article before and after the 2000s: James Fox's movie, Ross Coulthart's book, Robert Hastings (ufologist) book, etc. None of these things are cited as significant or important by any independent histories of UFOlogy or authoritative sources. The timeline resembles more an RSS feed or content aggregator or web scraper search result than an encylopedic article. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:33, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The references for these are added in. Now most entries have at least one reference. I'd say if any remaining entries don't pass mustard, please delete. I will see if you still disagree on this. VaudevillianScientist (talk) 01:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If anyone is willing to do it, I very much do see the upside in keeping it as a generic UFO timeline article. It wouldn't be purely duplicative if it incorporated material from several other pages in a different format. Otherwise, no opinion. PARAKANYAA (talk) 16:55, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would honestly say that that should be included as it had an extremely large impact on the public perception of UFOs and therefore later reports of them, yes. PARAKANYAA (talk) 17:26, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Deleteper the nominator. This article lacks any coherent inclusion criteria and most of the sourcing is poor, relying far too heavily upon primary and/or pro-fringe sources. The result is an article that, apparently, is one editor's attempt to create a WP:POVFORK for pro-fringe, and often non-notable, UFO material. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 21:55, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What would be considered pro-fringe in this case? Debrief vs New York Times? I think asking for every entry to credit a source for a topic deeply entrenched in controversy before the 2010s as ufology is not fair. How many of the UFO conspiracy theories are considered not pro-fringe? VaudevillianScientist (talk) 22:34, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think asking for every entry to credit a source [...] is not fair. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia. Perhaps it would be best for all of us to review the WP policy WP:NOT (in particular the subsection WP:LINKFARM) and the WP content guideline WP:FRINGE (in particular the subsections WP:FRIND and WP:PARITY). JoJo Anthrax (talk) 02:52, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:LINKFARM is only a stylistic issue and does not justify deletion. There is not a clear designation of how many links to include for each topic. It's possible to turn some links into references. Moreover, for a timeline article that include content over 100 years, we would expect more links and references than an average article. VaudevillianScientist (talk) 03:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rename per nominator and above suggestion. Note that doing this during the AfD is likely to cause more problems than it solves. Problems with move/scope change should be resolved/repaired, and THEN the list should be brought back here for discussion if problems remain. Jclemens (talk) 04:04, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: the article was renamed to "Timeline of Ufology" and I've removed several non-ufology items to reflect that. I still don't think the scope is clearly defined. What criteria determines if a book goes into the list? Would 1950s books by Donald Keyhoe, Frank Scully, or George Adamski be included? Rjjiii (ii) (talk) 06:51, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the edits. The book entries should be reconsidered for sure. Only those that introduced key concepts or conclusions (like Edward Ruppelt, Allen Hynek, and Jacques Vallee), first of its kind (like Charles Fort). This is quite straightforward in the STEM fields I'm familiar with editing, but for ufology there are quite a lot of controversies. I think the importance of books will become less and less from the 2020s on because more peer-reviewed research in the field are getting published, so they could become more justified sources of knowledge. Really, I think the sentiment from other editors have to do with the inclusion or disregard of certain books or accounts in the "old days" of ufology (e.g. pre-2000s).
more peer-reviewed research in the field are getting published, so they could become more justified sources of knowledge What peer reviewed research about UFOs is getting published? - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as "Timeline of Ufology," but there has to be an agreed-upon inclusion criteria, especially for anything from the 2000s onward. In the digital age it very easy to get things published. You can't have every modern book, TV and radio show, documentary, podcast, social media cast (eg, Spaces on X), etc. Wikipedia has lots of timelines: List of timelines, Category:Science_timelines, Category:Historical_timelines. Ufology is recognized by most governments to be an important topic. 5Q5|✉13:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See https://ask.un.org/faq/22686. On Dec 13, 1977, the General Assembly of the United Nations with all members present (a "plenary meeting") voted in the majority to consider a request by Granada to establish a UN agency to study UFOs. The following year on Dec 18, 1978 in another plenary meeting, the UN General Assembly voted in the majority in favor of letting interested governments create such an agency within their own governments and report results to the UN. In the first 1977 decision, all member nations were instructed to take the proposal back to their governments to discuss. This made it an important topic, which does not equate to belief or support. 5Q5|✉11:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think a vote made at the UN General Assembly almost 50 years ago counts as evidence of what governments today recognize to be important topics. In this case, especially, Granada requested that the UN create an agency and the decision amounts to "hey, if you're interested in creating an agency, you go ahead and create one, okay chap? Let me know if you find anything, buddy. Good luck." So even if had taken place yesterday, wouldn't count as evidence. VdSV9•♫13:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as probably not necessary. Timelines are useful for well-attested to histories and progressions. There is not really even a coherent subject matter here as there are combinations of fictions, religions, mental health, hoaxes and grift, military (in)competence, politics, and pseudoscience. Better off dealing with this in narrative/prose form instead of trying to curate a timeline whose inclusion criteria will be harder to figure out than List of UFO sightings. jps (talk) 13:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are no fictions, one book on potential connection to religion has been removed. There are no hoaxes or grift, which belong to another list. The (astro)physical and psychological aspects are the two major directions, the other aspects are about data collection efforts, which could be from governmental agencies or research institutions. VaudevillianScientist (talk) 04:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is absolutely not on me to provide [my] list of notable entries that fit the topic. In this forum, the aim is to reach a consensus on whether this article is worthy of inclusion in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia. And as for I don't intend to convince you anymore @JoJo Anthrax, perWP:PA it would perhaps be best to restrict comments to the topic/content, not the contributor(s). JoJo Anthrax (talk) 03:06, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I'm on the fence about this as I'm not 100% convinced it needs to be deleted. Ufology is notable in the Wikipedia sense. But to properly be a 'Timeline of Ufology', the inclusion criteria needs to be in the context of extraterrestrial UFOs, including the supposed government efforts to cover them up. The entries should be properly cited by a reliable source. I don't think speculative UFOlogy books should be included unless they satisfy the Wikipedia notability criteria. Praemonitus (talk) 17:26, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there shouldn't be too speculative or conspiracy-laden entries in books or other media formats. There are already some entries on the governmental efforts to cover them up in the timeline. It probably requires other editors to make them complete. VaudevillianScientist (talk) 18:06, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Under the new title, this is a theoretically notable subject. UFOlogy is a real thing, and it has developed over time. There have been major events that have shaped it. It should be possible to create this timeline. However, it would need to be constructed from sources which allow us to judge the significance of an event. Those sources will be histories of UFOlogy that place events in context and allow us to sift the significant ones from the insignificant ones. An event cannot be placed on this timeline just because it happened. That way lies only original research. An ideal source would say something like "In 1993, the release of the TV show The X Files caused a surge in public interest in UFOs" (I don't know if that's true, it's just an example of the kind of evidence that would justify putting an event on this list). If someone can make an argument that such sources exist and are of sufficient quality and number that we could build an article around them, then I would be happy to keep this article, but if such sources are not forthcoming, then the article is moribund. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 19:24, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a fair statement. I'm open to discussions about which entries to keep as some of the editors have already done. For entries whose influence are not immediately recognized, I would use something that came up much later. This applies to many pre-2000s entries. VaudevillianScientist (talk) 22:40, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but severely Prune Listing when governments created organizations to investigate UFOs, or make official comments about them, makes sense. Mentioning a YouTube podcast about UFOs makes no sense at all. There have been a large number of books published about this, and some have their own articles since they get reviewed, that doesn't mean they are notable to the study of UFOs. Listing popular entertainment media that just has UFOs in it makes no sense, nor even documentaries about it since that's just entertainment. DreamFocus04:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Removed the podcast. I previously consider it as a form of data collection and Andy's podcast was the first of its kind. I kept the History channel documentary because that's the first place where the five observables were introduced. VaudevillianScientist (talk) 05:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I have posted this message on the talk page of the article, it was in response to several conversations I (and others) have been trying to have with Vaudevillian Scientist. I'm reproducing my message here as I know it will disappear when the article is deleted. "You don't seem to understand VS. Look at this timeline submission you just edited "2010 August - Leslie Kean published her book UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record'". Leslie Kean is Wikipedia notable, but her book is not. The media does not recognize it as a book worthy of them writing about, so why are you adding it to the timeline? You seem to think this is an important work. You are doing original research which is not allowed. You are deciding what should be on the timeline, you are deciding what is important to this topic. Clearly the wider world does not find this important or notable enough to single it out and focus their limited time on. This is what I'm trying to explain. You are the sole arbitrator of what to include. Wikipedia just can't allow an article for Vaudevillian Scientist's list of most important moments in UFO history, that is what a personal website is for. We have asked you over and over and you are not getting it. I'm sorry as I see you have committed a lot of time working on this timeline and I see you are continuing to fuss over it, but it is a failed attempt. To keep throwing more and more content at it, when it wasn't thought through in the first place and you have ignored our concerns is not a good use of your time (in my opinion) We have all been there VS, we are so focused on our vision of things we can't see that it's not going to remain. It's a painful lesson, but it is a lesson. I will be voting delete in the AfD discussion because of this reason. " Sgerbic (talk) 19:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your reasoning is very flawed. Kean's wiki bio did list the book, it didn't mention the book to a great extent because nobody had the time to write about it there. Wikipedia is an evolving enterprise and most of the articles are far from complete (whatever that means). Her book is actually featured on major serious venues for UAP studies or public events since the mid-2010s. VaudevillianScientist (talk) 19:44, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know why you call me the sole arbiter, there are apparently others who contributed to the editing. Really, this timeline would have been easier to be converted to another format so it can skip the drama of the fringe community. VaudevillianScientist (talk) 19:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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